01- Engine

• Pistons
• Crank nut
• Belt tensioning error
• Cam hub removal
• Turbo light on
• V6 headgasket change
• Pulling an engine
• Tensoiners
• T-belt change
• Quick head removal
• 3.5L
• Intake gaskets
• Worn cams
• Upper pan removal
• Cam timing specs
• Mixing bore and stroke
• Grooved crank
• head prep
• Different cams
• valve guide install
  

>In message , Greg Hermann <bearbvd@sni.net> writes
>Snipped loads of good stuff
>>
>>The place where there is GREAT room for improvement in performance and
>>durability is in more accurate machining of liners (like with them
>>installed in a block with a torque plate installed and warm water
>>circulating in the water jacket--and in use of sophisticated coatings to
>>both reduce wear and friction and to reduce heat transfer into the
pistons.
>>(Among other benefits are tighter allowable piston to sleeve clearances,
>>and still lower leakdown rates. Most Alfa motors have attrociously high
>>leakdown rates!!
>>
>Is this for real?
>People actually put them in the block to do a re-bore like in a mini?
>This is a new one on me, and I thought I'd heard all the ideas about
>engines, from the Alfaesque to the downright sidevalve. Where would you
>attach the torque plate, and how do you keep the steam around the liner,
>or do you just have HOT water?

A torque plate goes on, just like a head, but has holes in it where the
chambers would be so that the boring bar/honing stones can get at the
bores. The idea is that the liners are thus subjected to the same
stress/strain (deflection) as they are when the engine is fully
assembled--thus you get bores in the sleeves which are round and straight
in their as operated condition.

Yes--circulating hot water (about 160 degrees) in the block cavity when
doing the machining helps get closer to duplicating the deflections that
the sleeves see when the engine is assembled and operating. This is
particularly true with an aluminium block, because of aluminiums greater
thermal expansion. Blocks for small block fords are often machined using
such tricks for high performance work--so there ARE machine shops out there
who would understand.

The point of all this is that the sleeves ARE NOT particularly rigid
pieces--they deflect under the stresses imposed when the head is torqued
down, as well as from thermal stresses.

If you doubt this, try assembling a block with sleeves and a properly
torqued head, but without crank, rods, and pistons--then check the bores of
the sleeves for roundness and straightness with a bore gauge inserted
upward form the crankcase.
 

>Reducing the heat transfer into the pistons pushed me into "this is a
>wind-up" mode so bear with me here guys and gals, I thought that the
>heat transfer was from the pistons, via the liners to the coolant.

It is. Sorry--I was not too clear. A ceramic coating on the crowns of the
pistons will help keep heat in the chambers--thus both improving the
thermodynamic efficiency of the engine AND keeping the pistons much cooler.

I am partial to a teflon impregnated hard anodizing on the rest of the
piston--skirts and ring grooves and pin bores. Such coatings have a very
high surface hardness ( actually a bit harder on the surface than a file),
and, as you might imagine, are also rather slippery, which helps improve
power output through reduction of friction. Less skirt friction, a harder
skirt surface which is much less prone to galling, and a much cooler piston
to begin with all add up to allowing one to set the skirt clearance MUCH
closer than otherwise possible with a forged piston. This closer fit allows
much tighter ring sealing to develop, Less motion of the rings in the
grooves (as the pistons no longer rock in the bores), together with a much
harder, better wearing surface inside the grooves all add up to a much
longer wearing , better sealing piston/ring/sleeve assembly. Of course,
having a better ring seal means less (hot) blowby gas, which further helps
keep things somewhat cooler.
>
>
>>The other problem you will get into with compression ratios above 10 on
>>forged pistons in an Alfa is extremely rapid wear of the top ring groove.
>>The right coating can help this, as can a true synthetic oil.
>>
>Wonder why the ring groove would wear? Anybody know?

2618 Aluminium (the strongest of the piston forging alloys) is a fair bit
softer than the usual piston casting alloys. Also, a higher compression
ratio means that the piston temperature will be higher, particularly at the
top ring groove area. These factors  work both to reduce available
lubrication AND to make the piston material softer still. Add in the fact
that a forged piston normally has to be fitted with substantially more
skirt clearance than a cast one, and that this leads to more motion of the
rings in and out of their grooves. Hence the rapid groove wear.
>
>>Close attention to the design of your ring pack is also VERY important.
>>Personally, I would not take a gift of Deves rings for any engine! My own
>>preference is for a ductile chrome top ring, Total seal second, and a
>>chrome plated iron, H section, oil ring with a coil spring expander.
>>
>>I am also partial to hard surface conversions on the sleeves.
>Such as chrome, or what?

Chrome has been used for this (as in the "chromal" barrels for Porsches),
but my own preference is for "Bore Tech"--which is a proprietary treatment
which leaves some variety of a carbide surface on cast iron bores. The
surface of cylinder bores given this treatment are harder than a lady of
the evening's heart!! And  consequently, they last three to six times
longer. LOTS of motorcycle folks use Bore Tech.
>
>After reading this post, as I rarely do before spouting, I can see that
>it looks like a Gregflame. This is not the case, as I have found some
>new ideas which is, IMHO always a good thing. I also found several
>questions implicit within the original post, because of my ignorance.

No prob--I just sort of threw a few of the thoughts out there without a lot
of detail, to see if there was any interest. Now you have more detail.

But--sheesh--what's gonna happen when I mention that I like to rifle drill
the con rods so as to get pressure oiling  to the small end bushings??  Or
hand lapping the rings to pre-seat them to pre-polished bores???
Meaning--no more break in time or waiting for the rings to "seat" !!! :-)
>
Regards, Greg

I believe it's a 41mm.  Snap-On only makes one in 1" drive.  I know USAG
makes a 3/4" drive 41mm -- does anybody know of a U.S. USAG distributor?
I tried Griot's, but they can't seem to get one.

Everybody (including myself) uses the 1 5/8", but it is a little loose.
It'd be nice to have a 41mm.

- - Tom
thomasw@retail.com

Hi Michael,

You probably didn't do this, but it is possible to follow the
tensioner installation directions and end up with loose a
timing belt. So, I thought this should be posted.

I helped a friend install a timing belt and set up the tensioner
recently. We following the instructions as closely as possible.
As specified in the installation instructions, we rotated the
engine 4 revolutions CW, but did so using the cam turning tool
acting on the left cam. This was wrong. It isn't stated in the
installation instructions, but to seat the belt, the engine must
be rotated by applying torque to the crankshaft, not a cam. (This
can be done by pushing the car forward in 4th gear, wrenching on
crank pulley nut, or by jacking up the left rear wheel and
rotating that wheel in CW direction).

When we incorrectly used the cam turning tool acting on the cam
to rotate the engine and set the tensioner so marks were aligned,
the belt was too loose and jumped notches fairly easily.

Thanks to Fred Di Matteo and John Katos who pointed out our error.

Regards,

Rich
'87 Milano
'78 Spider
'67 Duetto
'66 Sprint GTV
Editor, i Saluti, St Louis AROC
Website: http://www.catenary.com/victor/isaluti

I only received 2 replies:

  First one:
    Go to Sears and buy a "Harmonic Balancer/Steering-Wheel Puller" (it's
    $15-$25 if I remember correctly).  I've used this several times for just
    job.  You will want to replace the  bolts that came with the kit with
    long metric bolts (Home Depot should carry) that thread into the hub.
    This should be a pretty straightforward  job.
  Second one:
    I pulled the hub off using a generic puller from OTC. Just make sure you
    use metric bolt. 
Since I've already have a 2-prong puller, I just bought a used hub
from AR Ricambi in Glendale, CA, for $8.50 and 3 metric bolts (40mm
long, 7mm in diameter, 10 threads per cm).  I used this setup like
what I described to you in my last email. 
Best wishes,
Chisheng Huang
LA, CA, USA
79 Alfette GTV 2000, sleeping in Taiwan
81 GTV6
86 Spider Veloce
87 Milano Silver
ps.  i saw one used hub at ar ricambi that was bent out of shape.  so
     i feel more comfortable to use a used hub and 3 metric bolts to
     spread the force just like the factory tool does.

- cylinders
- pistons
- exhaust manifold
- exhaust camshaft
- polished the valves
- revised the turbo
- bearings
- distribution chains
- drive shaft donuts

Now after 400 km I still haven't seen my knock sensor warning light.
The old turbo was working fine, but when we opened it you could see that the
internal heat shield at the turbine side was almost completely destroyed by
the turbine. This meant that the turbo could never make its correct RPM's.
This means that the engine was always running rich. I think that's the real
trigger for the warning light.

Alfa
massimo.dellorti@italtel.it wrote:

> Tree days ago I take my 75TURBO from mechanic.
>
> I leave it for problem at "RED ALERT" knock lamp:
> the lamp switch on and remain on until I release
> completely the throttle or, if I release the throttle
> slowely until 1500 RPM, the lamp pulsing.
>
> Pulse code (ON x 1sec ; OFF x 2sec ; ON x 1sec ; OFF x 5sec...)
> mean that max delay ignition value was reached, so ignition
> box give default parameters, swiching off turbo.
>
> The mechanic at "GARAGE CENTRALE ALFA ROMEO" of my city says me:
> "Now the lamp remains off!"
>
> In fact it remains off and turbo work correctly.
>
> More detail on next message!
>
> Ciao,
>       Massimo.

Kevin Fillip asked about the difficulty of replacing head gaskets on his
'88 Milano:

Kevin, I replaced the gaskets on my GTV6 just a few months ago, and so the
process is still very fresh in my mind.  While the process isn't overly
complicated, and doesn't require special tools, it is tedious and does
require a lot of time.  If you have no experience doing this kind of work,
and need the car for transportation, I suggest biting the bullet (before
your wife can chamber it), and taking it to a reputable mechanic.  Expect
to pay about $1,800 for both gaskets.  If you have no experience but are
feeling brave, I believe that you can complete the proceedure with a lot of
help from your friends.  If you have some experience, all the better.

I am an experienced mechanic, but had never done this job on a GTV6 before.
 To replace the driver's side head gasket and install a new, mechanical
tensioner required about 32 hours of labor.  To do both heads, I would
estimate about 40 hours.  To do just the passenger side head, I would
estimate about 28 hours.

Again, you have to be brave if you are going to approach this job yourself.
 You will be dismantling a great deal of the mechanicals in the engine
compartment.  The special tools you will need are:

- -  1-5/8" socket to turn the engine by the crank
- -  A pair of outside snap ring pliers
- -  A deep 19 mm socket
- -  A torque wrench accurate around 75 ft-lb
- -  A roll of masking tape and pen or pencil
- -  You will also need the full range of metric sockets and combination
wrenches

While you're in there, you should check and replace the timing belt
tensioner, if necessary, and replace the coolant pump--even if it shows no
signs of failure.  You should also replace the drive belts, since you'll
have clear access to them.  You'll also be installing a new timing belt. 
Do not reuse the old one.  You don't have to replace the coolant hoses, but
you should if you can afford it.

Begin the job by putting the front of the car up on ramps.  Disconnect the
battery.  Next, remove the hood.  You'll want complete access, even to the
back of the engine.  Drain the coolant.  Remove the coolant hoses and the
radiator.  Now that you've got clear access to the crank, put the car in
neutral and turn the engine, using the 1-5/8" socket, to cylinder 1 TDC. 
Put the car back in gear.  Remove the drive belts.  Begin removing the
sensor wires from the thermostat housing.  Use the masking tape to label
each wire, so that you can reconnect it to its correct sensor.  Undo and
remove the timing belt covers.  The pass. side can be difficult.  You may
want to remove the interfering sensor from the thermostat housing.  Loosen
and remove the timing belt tensioner.  Remove the timing belt.  Throw it
out.  If you take my advice and replace the coolant pump, remove it now. 
The whole front of the engine should now be exposed.  Disconnect the air
flow meter (wires and large hose), and remove the whole airbox assembly. 
Undo all of the air plumbing from the engine.  Label any hoses whose
address you may forget.  Undo the large intake  hose from the plenum, and
remove the whole air plumbing mess as an assembly.  Disconnect the injector
wires from the injectors.  Undo the clamps holding the intake runner hoses
to the plenum.  Lift the plenum off of the runners, and lean it back,
against the windshield.  Undo the small bolts fixing the injectors to the
heads.  Lift the metal fuel delivery line and the injectors, as an
assembly, away from the engine and set it aside on the pass. side fender. 
This will probably end your first day of work.

If you are replacing the driver's side, the fun begins now.  Remove the
driver's seat.  I know, I know, just do it.  You'll thank me later.  Lay on
your back, under the dash.  Disconnect the brake pedal from the master
cylinder.  Undo the nuts fixing the master cylinder to the firewall.  This
is slow, tedious, and painful.  Admit to yourself that it's going to take a
while.  After you get the nuts off, go inside, have a beer, and make your
chiropractor appointment.  Next, undo the brake lines from the master
cylinder, and set the master cylinder aside.

The following process is the same for both heads:  Crawl under the car and
loosen (just loosen) the nuts connecting the exhaust to the header.  Mine
weren't frozen in place.  If yours are, soak them with penetrating oil the
day before.  Next, remove the nuts and bolts fixing the exhaust header to
the head.  Again, mine weren't frozen.  If yours are, soak them with
penetrating oil the day before.  Pull the exhaust header away from the
head.  Let it rest against the inner fender.  Remove the valve cover. 
Begin undoing the nuts fixing the head to the engine.  Undo them in reverse
order, about a turn at a time.  After the nuts are off, the head will
likely move a little when you
pull on it.  It will also likely stick a little when you pull on it.  Apply
force as needed to free the head from the block, and after 20 minutes or so
of struggling, lift the head away.  Once either head is off, be ABSOLUTELY
sure that the engine does not turn.  Don't disturb the crankshaft in any
way.  Don't even look at it.  Since the head is off, clean it up--inside
and out--using your favorite degreaser.  Take it inside, put it on the
bench, and check the valve clearances too.  Adjust as necessary.  Make sure
that the mating surface is surgically clean.  Use a razor blade or x-acto
knife to remove any offending debris.  Leave no bits of old gasket or dirt.
 Make sure that there is no oil on the surface.  If you want to be really
sure there's no oil on it, wipe the surface with isopropal alchohol just
before reinstallation.  Do the same thorough cleaning for the mating
surface of the engine block.  Your car probably came with a single piece
gasket, but if it didn't, remove the metal, flame-proof rings from the tops
of the cylinder liners.  Make sure the the tops of the liners are also
surgically clean.  Lay the new gasket in place.  Apply nothing to the
gasket.  Slide the head down over the studs, making sure, visually,  that
it's seated on the gasket.  Replace the nuts and tighten, in steps, and in
order, to spec.--72 ft-lbs, if I remember correctly.

As they always--too easily--say, assembly is the reverse.  It's best to
leave the valve covers off until you've installed the NEW timing belt. 
You'll need to see the timing marks on the cams to ensure that you've got
the whole deal set up correctly.  Also, turn the engine over by hand after
installing and tensioning the belt.  You want to make sure that there is no
interference before unleashing the starter.  If you feel any
interference--in other words, if something feels jammed--you've mistimed
the engine.  Turn it backwards to TDC again, and start over.  While
everything is apart, you may also want to replace a few more items that
age:  the injector seals (cheap, do it), vacuum lines (cheap, do it), and
coolant lines from the thermostat housing to the heads (also cheap). 
Assembly will take about as long as disassembly, so when you're ready to
put the head back on, you're halfway through the job.

After everything is back together, start the engine and let it run until up
to operating temp.  Let it cool overnight, and retorque the head--dead
cold--in the morning.

Take your time with this job.  It can be difficult and a bit overwhelming. 
However, if you keep your head about you, take a break when you get
overwhelmed, and talk to your Alfa friends for advice, you'll get through
it.  And you'll be better off for the experience.
 

Rich
Manitou Springs, CO
'82 GTV6 Balocco

btw, the reason i didn't respond to your prior question is that i don't
believe i had the definitive answer.  since you didn't get any responses, if
you want to resend the question to me i'll take a stab at it.

hope this helps,

bs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-alfa@digest.net [mailto:owner-alfa@digest.net]On Behalf Of
> Wendy Wood & Carson Damm
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 9:38 AM
> To: alfa digest
> Subject: pulling an engine
>
>
> On my 87 milano plat with abs how much time/difficulty is there in pulling
> the engine. How would you rate it if a 105 engine and trans
> together is a 5
> out of 10.
>
> Carson Damm
Carson writes :
<< On my 87 milano plat with abs how much time/difficulty is there in pulling
 the engine. How would you rate it if a 105 engine and trans together is a 5
 out of 10. >>

I have never pulled a 105 engine and trans, but I have pulled my 87 platinum
engine a number of times, it is not difficult. The hardest parts are a)
removing the driveshaft and b) removing the coolant hose (order a new one)
from the drive side (US) head. A few notes in no particular order:
1) You DO NOT have to remove anything brake related.
2) Remove the pipes from the manifolds, but leave the manifolds and starter
on.
3) Remove the driveshaft at the front by loosening the nut which holds the
splined shaft.
4) Take it slow.
5) Installation is basically the reverse of removal.

John Katos
87 Milano Platinum

The only difficulty is taking out the drive shaft. After that I feel that
it is actually easier than the 105 motor trans combo. The big trick is to
take out the bolts which allow the hood to pivot back (you dont actually
take the hood off). Once thats out of the way there is plenty of clearance.
It is a little difficult to remove the exhaust at the bottom of the
headers. I have found that cutting the protruding suspension bolts makes
this part of the job easier. If you have done the 105 job you should have
little trouble with a Milano.
 

TOM SAHINES ARA TECH HOT LINE SAN JOSE CA 

i've got a mechanical tensioner on my stock 2.5, but with the modified 3.0 i
chose to rebuild the hydraulic one this time around.  i heard rumor that
alfa has a new one available (to replace the mechanical one), but they're
trying to purge all the old mechanical ones out of their inventory before
they make them available.

fwiw,

bs

Having done this job within the last month it's still pretty clear in
my head: the mechanical tensioner 'upgrade' kit should include a stud
that serves as a replacement for the upper bolt used on the hydraulic
tensioner. Also included, should be the revised method for setting
belt tension which, while not difficult, should be followed TO THE
LETTER according to those in the know.

To perform the new method it's helpful to have a mirror in order to
see the tension indicator's position. Also, because of the importance
of accurate tension, I'd recommend cutting a hole in the belt cover
over the tensioner  so that the tension can be checked and reset if
required without removing the cover. (Why couldn't AR have put a
pop-off cover there as they do with the cam pulley caps?!?)

If you don't have the instructions for tensioning, perhaps Alfa Bill
at Mastro could fax you a copy in exchange for a Newcastle on his next
lap of the US. Or perhaps you could make your next purchase through
Mastro? I would, but the sheet (as with the majority of my
possessions) is in storage at the moment.

If no options for obtaining the instructions are available to you,
accept this procedure from my memory:

This all should be done at 'high room temperature' (80-90 degrees).

1. Align the engine to TDC.
2. Using a torque wrench and a 6-inch 3/8 extension placed into the
square opening on the tensioner, loosen the tensioner's retaining
bolt, apply 17 pounds of torque, and tighten the bolt.
3. Roll the car forward in 4th or 5th gear, fully rotating the engine
4 times and returning to the TDC mark. If you miss the mark, DO NOT
ROLL THE CAR BACKWARD!!! Continue forward until you reach the mark
again.
4. Apply your wrench to the square hole again and carefully loosen the
retaining bolt until the tensioner begins to move.
5. Reduce tension until the tension indicator points to the mark and
then tighten the retaining bolt. Note: If you allow the tensioner to
slip past the optimum mark, you MUST repeat the entire process! (Go
slow! I speak from experience.)
6. Rotate the engine 4 more times to verify that the tension remains
at spec. If it does not...guess what?...repeat the process.

You are done. If anyone has anything to add, I heartily encourage them
to do so!

- - Eric Hambleton, Marietta, GA
1983 GTV6 -- Felicite

I worked at a dealer from 86 to 93 and the number of Milano heads I have 
pulled has to be in the several hundreds.  I work on commission so time
is everything.  Here is the low down 65 minutes to pull the heads in the 
car, 90 minutes to just pull the engine.  no contest.  booster bolts are 
dealt with with a swivel socket and 24 inch extension and try removing 
the lower steering column surround to get a straighter shot them. 
Just swung out of the way, but remove the pipes from the holders so
that
any bending is over as large a length as possible.
The hard part is the cotter pin in the brake pedal clevis.  I never could 
teach anyone how I did it and sometimes I would still spend 5 minutes if 
things didn't go well. 

chris hall 

no commercial interest, all disclaimers apply. 

Contact: Autodelta Forza house, (44) (0) 181 838 3535 

And I doth quote: 

Stage 1: increase engine capacity to 3500cc using 101mm bore, gas flowed 
heads, lightened and balanced engine, reprogrammed injection system, includes 
complete engine rebuild. 4450.00 British pounds (includes use of rolling road 
to set up engine once conversion is completed). 

Stage 2: As with Stage 1 but larger lightweight valves. 800.00 British pounds 
extra. 

Stage 3: As with Stage 2 but with: Choice of specially profiled camshafts, 
sold in matched pairs, 480.00 British pounds; Specially uprated injection 
metering unit to increase torque, 500.00 British pounds extra; Heavy duty 
balanced clutch, 450.00 British pounds extra. 

All donations welcome. 500 people on the list, $20 each, and I'm on my way!!!! 

CeYa! 
Peter Lundquist 
Burlingame, CA 
'69 GTV 
'87 Platinum (yes with ABS, and probably not getting the weird width rims :o( 

Chris Landry wrote:

> Anyway, I'm about to install the intake rinners to the heads.  The manual
> shows a stackup of gasket, insulating gasket, gasket.  Whatever was in there
> seems to have been discarded.  The new gasket set I bought has 12 of the
> right shaped gaskets, all identical, that appear to be some gasket material
> bonded to a metal mesh.  That would be two per runner.
>
> Am I missing the "insulating gaskets"?

Yes, you are. You should have 6 bakelite insulators, the same shape as the
gasket, about 3/8" thick (~9mm for the metric world :-).
They are fairly fragile and frequently crack when being removed from the
head.

> Do I just use the 2 gaskets I have per runner?

I'd have to say no - they're there for a reason. At a guess I'd say they
provide some thermal insulation to keep the plenum chamber temperature
down.

Tony
1985 Alfa 90 2.5i
The Alfa 90 Page http://www.geocities.com/t.lupton

TOM SAHINES ARA TECH HOT LINE SAN JOSE CA

 Carson,

When I switched to "S" Cams I did notice that the cams were worn - you can
see where they are a different (darker) color on the lobes (this is where
they have worn through the surface hardening). I had a performance loss
before - just a general lack of torque, which I had been blaming on my
larger wheel/tire combo. 

The wear was worst on cylinders 1 and 4 (in front) which may point to a
subtle oiling problem with these. These tappets were also pretty badly beat.
I have heard from others with worn cams in front also.

Buona Fortuna,
Joe Cabibbo

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:32:46 -0700
From: "Mark Thornton" <markmt@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: cam lobe wear

In v07.n1510 Carson asks about milano cams and how to check them for
wear

> How does one tell if a cam lobe is wearing out? I imagine that one would
> be considered worn out if there is just a few thou missing off the peak.
> Is there a tell tale pattern on the lobe, burrs on the sides or
> something?

This is a familiar topic.  Both my berlina and milano have new cams because
of wear.  There have been some good posts on the right way to do this
... but there are a couple of other ways, too.

Clean the cam and examine it in strong light.  Clean it enough that no
oil hides things.  What I have in mind is spray brake cleaner and sunlight,
not that we have sunlight here in the rainy northwest usa.  You expect to
see a finely machined surface polished by wear.  You may see a dull scuffed
surface or pores where surface material has been eroded away.  Not a
good sign.  A couple of the milano exhaust cam lobes had this.

Especially on the milano we're advised not to overlook wear on the cam
followers.  That would be another thing to inspect.  Clean them and look for
scuffing or wear pits.  I use a straight edge, or stroke the follower once
over wet number 400 silicon carbide paper on a plate glass surface.  The
abraded pattern does no harm but gives you a sort of map of the surface.
The milano had a couple of bad followers, and got all new.  They were
not as expensive as I thought.

You can measure the lobe height plus base circle.  Good condition cams I run
have these all matching within 0.001 inch.  For example, the 105 032 cams
from a spica 2-liter.  Of course you can't fully measure the profile with
only a set of calipers.  But you can compare the lobes to see if they
are worn unevenly.

One trick:  when measuring the base circle, keep an eye out for a curious
ramp on the leading edge of the lobe.  I once was told this is a feature
to enhance lubrication.

My impression is that the 2-liter motor is sensitive to minor wear on the
cam.  Changing to less worn used stock cams and carefully timing them
yielded quite a benefit on the berlina.  Worth between 5 and 10 mph at
the local track.  A new set of cams, a fussy careful setting of clearances,
and correct timing also gave a much needed boost to the milano top end.

cheers,

mark m. thornton
seattle washington usa

Yes, you can remove the upper pan with the engine in the car.

BUT

You do have to unbolt the driveshaft and at least unhook the splined end
from the front donut You do have unbolt all three motor mounts
You do have to raise the engine to get to the four 8mm (10mm head) bolts
in the back of the upper pan which rests right above the power steering rack.

Very little room there.  Make sure you don't squash your fingers if the engine falls down on
them.  I helped my mechanic Phil do this a few years ago when a customer refused to allow Phil
to take the engine out R&R the mains.  Our conclusion at the end of the eight hour struggle?
If it's major enough to open the upper pan, just pull the motor.  The severity
of the job could require more work elsewhere, and more accessibility helps.

Good luck.

Nizam

Hi,

Yes, all IE models have variable cam timing. Alfa started this with the
Alfetta 2.0 IE Quadrifoglio Oro (I have one in my garage to restore...).
Before I had that car, I did once some measurements on the lobes of the
camshafts of another 2.0 IE, I would replace my 1.8IE with that. I still
have that engine, and one day it will replace it, hopefully also tuned a
little bit :))

Well, what I found with the cams, I saw that the shape of the cam lobes is
fairly the same as with the old carburettor models. So what is the case:
They say this cam timing will give more torque and more blabla. However,
it's the other way round: Since they use the electronic injection or the
motronic, they also use variable cam timing (except for the 155 1.7TS as far
as I know). Why? Because the motronic can't let the engine idle smoothly at
900 rpm and <0,5% CO (with carbs it was 3,5% or more !!!). So the inlet cam
timing is DELAYED at idle. But they sell you that the timing is ADVANCED for
better performance! But that was the normal sitiuation Alfa always had...
It's just the way you look at it.
My measurements also pointed out that the timing difference at idle and at
higher revs differ about 30 degrees.

>From the book "Reparatur Anleitung Alfa 75TS und 3.0V6 (Buchelli Verlag,
ISBN 3-7168-1830-5)" I get following figures for the TS (I quote):

inlet camshaft 60513306
outlet camshaft 60513307
valve clearance (cold)  IN 0,400-0,450 mm
valve clearance (cold) OUT 0,450-0,500 mm
cam lift IN 11,0 mm
cam lift OUT 9,5 mm
inlet opens 24°44'-17°44' / 56°44'-49°44' before TDC (there you have my 30
degrees!)
inlet closes 94°28'-101°28' / 62°28'-69°28' after TDC
inlet duration 229°12'
outlet opens 67°50' before BDC
outlet closes 34° after TDC
outlet duration 281°50'

Arjan

John H. wrote:

"Dave J, speculating on V6 games, writes "Of course this all depends on
whether they achieved 2.0 by reducing the stroke or the bore," -"

"Me, I'm happy enough with (at most) 2.5l, 12 valves, naturally aspirated,
and would be more interested in a way to convert to chain-driven cams
(atavist!) but for your-alls paper games the B and S are 88 mm x 68.3
mm, 2492 cc; 93 mm x 72.6 mm, 2959 cc; and 80 mm x 66.2 mm, 1996 cc."

I don't think I've ever been looked down upon so politely and inoffensively
in my life :-).  This is indeed for the time being a paper game for most
of us, but it is interesting none-the-less to see what might be achievable,
if one desired to try.

Having nothing better to do, or actually lots better to do but wanting
an excuse not to do it, and having MS Excel in front of me, I built a
simple spreadsheet to calculate swept volume and B/S ratio.  (That's
bore/stroke ratio - now if someone could just calculate the BS ratio 
of the digest, based on the number of SUV, Spica/Weber, cupholder and 
political threads in each installment I'd know which ones to delete ;-). 
Here is what I got (you may need to chose a fixed width font for proper 
format):

Description         Bore       Stroke   B/S Ratio     Cyl  Swept Volume

Stock 2.5 litre     88.0        68.3        1.29        6        2491.2
Stock 3.0 litre     93.0        72.6        1.28        6        2957.5
Stock 2.0 litre     80.0        66.2        1.21        6        1995.5
3.0 P/L 2.5 crank   93.0        68.3        1.36        6        2782.3
3.0 P/L 2.0 crank   93.0        66.2        1.40        6        2696.8

So the 2.0 crank does increase the B/S ratio, but not by as much as the 2.8
over the 2.5.  OTOH, it only reduces the capacity by 85 cc.  Whether the
additional revs available could make up for the loss of volume is harder to
calculate, and I am not going to try to work out piston velocities at my
desk.  However, it does appear that the 3.0 P/L 2.0 crank combo, if
compatible, would be the highest revving of the lot.  This assumes you
make the other modifications necessary to access it, such as cam profiles,
valve springs, and so on.

One thing that strikes me here is that the stock 3.0 has an almost identical
B/S ratio to the 2.5, yet many profess to enjoy the freer revving nature
of the smaller motor.  Perhaps what they are experiencing is the effect of
more restrictive breathing (if the 3.0 intake and headers are not enlarged
over the 2.5), cam profiling to move the power and torque peaks down, or
higher gearing.  These things could all be rectified without an expensive
conversion, while retaining the advantage of the extra displacement.

Another thing is that the 3.0 pistons must have the pin at least 2.15 mm
(half the stroke) closer to the crown to retain the same compression ratio
as the 2.5.  So using 3.0 pistons with a 2.5 crank would probably lower
the C/R quite a bit.  The 2.0 crank would do so by another 0.95 mm for a
total of 3.1 mm.  This would require a lot of milling to compensate, or
possibly
the use of custom pistons.  The lowered C/R might be appropriate for a
turbo, but I would wonder what this gap would do to combustion chamber
effectiveness.  Apparently it works for the 2.8, unless Fred's machining
instructions include a way around it.

It is certainly clear that the 2.8 motor should be a real screamer, but the
3.0/2.0 combination would be even more so.  I'm still backing this combo
with the 2.0 turbo setup and 24V heads as the ultimate DIY special
version of the V6 until someone builds one and proves otherwise.  I 
imagine it would
be an all out race motor, and pretty sluggish on the street, but one it
got wound up, look out!

Enough speculation for today I think.  As John is found of saying, enjoy
yours...

Dave J.
1987 Milano Verde
1964 2600 Sprint

Arjan,

Wait!  Is this groove in the first rod journal (or tap as you call it) 
of the crankshaft, i.e. counting from the crank pulley towards the 
flywheel?

This groove is on every V6 crank!  I've uploaded a picture into the 
Files section so you can see what I mean.  The deep groove (it 
goes right around the oil passage) is also on the 3.0V6 cranks.  

What you should be looking for is roughness across the whole 
journal/tap.  It should be as smooth as glass all the way across.  

By the way, you never mentioned what was wrong with your 
engine that led you to take it apart.  Was it losing oil pressure?
(When I first saw that groove I thought the crank was toast 
because of it, not true!)

Nizam
75 3.0V6
 

 
 Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:52:15 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Scott Potter <jotacorsa@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Re: EPROM binary code for TS

Hi Bryce,

> I imagine the torque
> curve would raise more than the power curve but max
> bhp and torque would
> remain in a similar place in the rev band 

The torque curve and the horsepower curve should cross
at 5250rpm.  Look at it this way...torque gets you
going and horsepower keeps you going.

> 3)I have bought a second hand head which I intend
> to polish inlet ports, match the inlet 
> ports to the manifold, and
> same to the exhaust
> manifold/ports plus some work on the valves   and
> seats

The inlets should have a slight roughness to them and
so keeping the surface boundary layer thinner than
with a fully polished port.  Save the full polish for
the exhaust to discourage carbon buildup.

Your inlet manifold can be slightly smaller than the
port with no ill effects...but not larger.  A #40
drill bit and a roll pin to hold the inlet in the
exact position to the head is a good thing as the
tolerance around the bolts may allow a slight mismatch
to occur.

Greatest gains in the port will be in the pocket
behind the valve, pay attention to the short side
radius.  

Have the seats cut on a Serdi machine, it will outflow
anyone's best hand three angle at low lifts.  Back cut
the inlet valves to improve flow.

Scott

Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:37:00 -0500
From: "Hans@ ItalianMotorWorks" <hans@imw-alfa.com>
Subject: [alfa] OEM valve guide drivers and aftermarket valve guides.

Over the years, I've found that the two don't play well together.
The fit isn't right in either the diameter or the height of the seal part of
the guide/driver,
so that part of the guide would be opgefokt, as we say in Holland, during
installation.
Moral of the story? Check the fit before swinging the hammer.
If it doesn't fit, take a new guide to your local machine shop and have them
make up a custom driver - around forty bucks in Atlanta.

BTW, I don't heat 4 cylinder heads nor chill the guides to install them, but I
clean and deburr the hole verry carefully and use ATF as a lubricant.

V6 heads are another story - if they're not heated the exhaust side will be
distorted by the beating and the valveseat contact area will be lopsided.
Yep, learnt that the hard way.
ciao,

Hans