05- Ignition, Starting and Charging

• Alternator
• Surging, coils
• Starter swap
• ign. switch removal
• No starter when hot
• Good starter no-go
• NGK plug P/N's
• Ign. key won't come out
• No start with automatic
• TS spark trobs
• Cutting out
• TS won't start
• V6 alternator removal
• 2.5, 3.0 plug wires
• 2.5, 3.0 ign. ecu's
• Alternator brush wear
• died, no spark
• distributor timing
• Caps and rotors
• MSD 6AL install
  

Evidently you have not seen any of my postings regarding alternators.  The
only way to check what your charging system is doing is to connect a
digital
voltmeter to the battery while the engine idles.  You must see 14.2 volts
right after the engine has been started.  If the battery is already fully
charged you may see the voltage drop to 13.8 or thereabouts.  Your
alternator has what is called an internal regulator but in fact, it is
attached to the back end of the alternator, just the brushes are inside. 
The alternator in your GTV-6 is big enough to handle all of your needs if
it
is a Bosch unit.  I have been making voltage regulators available to AROC
Club members for much less cost than OEM from dealers.  I also have an
adjustable regulator for those wanting a little higher output.  Fred Di
Matteo, AROC Tech Advisor in Fort Myers, Florida

If you exchange starters, make sure you get the mounting bracket for that
starter.  They all look alike -- but the stud (hole) is about 1/8" further
from the starter on some than others.

If you take enough apart, the heat-shield is not a problem -- with the oil
filter and engine mount (from block to frame) out, and the engine hoisted
up, the shield will slide forward, and can be removed -- so too the
starter, even with the AC compressor still in place.

You probably have to remove that mounting bracket (two 10mm nuts -- what
a pain) in order to get a clean shot at the third motor mount nut -- but
that bracket is slotted -- only necessary to loosen the nuts, the bracket
slides toward you.  The mount (rubber) is also slotted -- remove the bolt
at top and you can probably swing the mount back and forth enough to
loosen the lower nut and slide the mount out (then you need a
double-jointed dwarf to tighten that lower nut on re-installation, but
that's another problem).

{The upper nut securing the starter to the housing seems possibly standard
15mm (normally, that size bolt takes a 17mm nut) -- a 15mm socket and a
couple 3/8" extensions will slip behind the starter/solenoid and engage it
nicely (then all you have to do is keep the bolt from turning....)}.

It only takes about six times as long to exchange starters as it would
if you could get at it.

r.m.bies

'guess you've got a problem too :(

Phil-
When I removed my broken ignition switch ('87 Milano Gold) (this was after 
a few weeks of difficult key action, when the key got stuck IN it), I used 
a Dremel grinder to grind a notch in the top of the round-headed bolt that 
holds the switch in place (visible after you remove the cowling to the 
steering column).  The bolt came right out with a regular screwdriver; it 
was so easy to turn that I suspect in retrospect that I could have simply 
gripped the bolt with a needle-nose pliers (or similar) and turned the bolt 
out without the Dremel routine.  You might try this first.  Also, when I 
disassembled the switch, a small spring and some broken metal pieces fell 
out, allowing the key to turn.  Rather than replace the switch with a new 
one, I reinstalled the old one (minus broken innards) and have used it 
without problem or incident since.
Good luck-
Jason Frautschi
DVAROC
Philadelphia, PA

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:13:47 -0600
From: Chris Lesher <chris.lesher@cusys.edu>
Subject: Jake's ignition switch

Joe asked:

>BTW, thanks to all who helped with Jake's ignition switch. He's going to 
>get a new one and have to pull the way-ill two-keys-one-car gag as the 
>switch assembly does not seem to want to come apart. Any tips would be 
>appreciated, but it looks like you're supposed to drive out a rod, but this 
>one is stuck.
>Joe Elliott

Joe/Jake - the key to removing the old switch is the button head bolt
(looks like a carriage bolt head) that you, of course, can't get a wrench
on.  You need to get that bolt spinning by either cutting a screwdriver
slot in it or (much easier) just use a punch or small screwdriver and
hammer to turn the bolt head.  On my Milano the bolt turned easily once
broken loose.  It's not torqued in there or anything.  That piece that
looks like a rod to drive out can be ignored.

Chris Lesher
Boulder CO
-----Original Message-----
From:   Carson or Wendy [SMTP:dammwood@incentre.net]
Sent:   Wednesday, February 16, 2000 1:45 PM
To:     willfam@mail.clarityconnect.com
Subject:        ign. switch

What responses did you get to this?  Thanks

The ignition switch just failed in my milano and I need to remove it. It
acts like I have the wrong key so I suspect I can fix it if I can get
the lock mechanism out. I seem to remember reading that when I get the
covers off and go to remove the lock mechanism there is a pin to pound out or
shear the head off of, or some such thing.=20

Can someone who has removed the lock mechanism tell me if this is true
or does the lock mechanism come out by removing bolts, screws or clips?

thanks in advance

Phil Williams
3 spiders and a platinum

     Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:51:29 -0800
     From: "Paul Barnfather" <plb@clanger9.demon.co.uk>
 

I had a sticking starter on my '88 TS.

I found that the starter solenoid plunger had a wear ridge on the
underside, and was making the solenoid stick when the engine was really
hot.

I fixed it by rotating the solenoid plunger 180 degrees so the worn
ridge was at the top. It's been fine ever since.
 

     Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:30:00 +0100
     From:   "Willy Hansen" <w_hansen@post3.tele.dk>

And the same problem for me! Some times the starter motor was completely
dead and I had to wait ½ - 1 hour before I could start.
I found out that the voltage drop to the electro-magnetic switch was too low
(too many contacts). I solved the problem by inserting a power relay between
the electro-magnetic switch and the battery. I've never seen the problem
again, - always starts.
Regards, Willy Hansen, DK.

The relay is a common standard relay for automobiles, e.g. 12 Volt coil and
appr. 20 ampere current rate for the close contact.

Old lead from the the electro-magnetic switch --------[coil]---- gnd

                   _______  New lead to the electro-magnetic switch
Battery (+12)______V        (Magnetschalter) Current is appr. 7 A

>   Well, my starter failed a week ago yesterday.  I push-started the car
and
> got home.  Charged the battery for 23hrs.  Still no-go.  Solenoid click,
> fuel pump runs, starter doesn't turn.  This is out of the blue.  Thursday
> morning the starter ran fine and starting difficulty was a result of
> failing fuel pump, as usual.  Thursday PM, "click."  Damn.
> Anyway, I get a
> used starter from APE and finally installed it today.  Same damn
> failure to

Your problem isn't with your starter.

Try cleaning the connections at the terminal block that's on the
firewall on the passenger side of the engine compartment.  Check both ends of the
main ground strap between the engine and the chassis.  Check your ignition switch.

HTH,

bs

Jeff wrote:

>Several years ago, I started using NGK BPR7ES >plugs in Alfa's. Thet are
>cheaper, more readily available, and seem to >last longer. YMMV

Just a note, if you add a "c" to that plug number, i.e. BCPR7ES, you get
exactly the same plug,
but with a 5/8 hex that's easier to sneak down into the spark plug wells
of the V6 Alfas.

The full breakdown of the NGK plug codes can be found at:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5949/ngk.htm

Paul Witek

Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:11:49 EDT
From: JJK1204@aol.com
Subject: Re: Help Key stuck in ignition.

In a message dated 7/12/00 8:42:29 PM Central Daylight Time, 
PandTHayes@cs.com writes:

<< The key on my 87 Milano is stuck in the ignition.  It wil turn from acessory 
to start but not back to the off/remove postion.  I have my car locked up 
with a club right now but need to get the key out.  >>

They all do that. It is possible to remove the key, however you will lose the 
key in lock circuit, (I know, big deal). Following is a short list of what 
you need to do. 

First remove the lock.
This is done by removing the plastic surround which is held on by screws, 
small metric socket head cap screws if I remember correctly. Next there is a 
shear screw underneath the lock. Either use a punch to hit it at an angle to 
unscrew it or use a Dremel tool with a cutoff wheel to cut a slot for a 
screwdriver. Disconnect the wire connectors and pull out the lock.

Remove the guts.
Fiddle around with the little pin on the side of the case until you can get 
the guts out of the case. Then working with a dental pick you can get the 
pieces of broken lock out of the tumbler area. Both times I have disassembled 
a Milano ignition switch I have managed to break the microswitch that 
controls the key in lock circuit. For me the only down side is I can't set up 
my radio to be on when the key is in the lock with the ignition off.

Reassemble and reinstall.

Good luck,

John Katos
West Dundee, IL

Or just change your ignition switch. ED.
-- 

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:03:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: adoherty@sas.upenn.edu (Adam Doherty)
Subject: Auto. Milano no start Q

A digest or two ago someone mentioned that upon trying to start his 
Milano the lights etc come on, but no joy from the engine. He further 
postulated upon possible causes, one of which was the lockout between
the 
gearshift mech and the ignition circuit--a clever impediment to driving 
through the garage wall.... Anyhow, having had this problem, I just 
puched the gearlever forward a little more, enough it seems to let the 
ignition circuit crank. Give it a try before you replace what may be a 
good switch. Otherwise, you can put the car in neutral, then it should 
start right up too.

Regards,

Adam

You seem to have eliminated almost everything... :-)
If I understand right:

- If you disconnect the front distributor, the engine stops.
So there's "something" wrong with the side ignition system.

- If you connect both distributors, the engine runs for a bit, then stops.
So, whatever is wrong is probably time/heat related.

- If you disconnect the side distributor, the engine runs OK and doesn't stop.
So, whatever is wrong is causing BOTH ignition systems to fail after a while.
 

As far as I know, both ignition systems are controlled in parallel by the 
Motronic. So, perhaps some kind of overload?

One possibility: the coil trigger unit is shorted out, so the coil is
being energised continuously. Is there a spark from the side coil HT?
Is the coil running warmer than the front one? If so, try swapping the
trigger units.

Alternatively, maybe a short on the HT could overload the coil (I don't
know if this is possible). Check the temperature of the trigger-unit transistor
(the flat round silver thing on the electronic box next to each coil). If
one is very hot, then there is some kind of overload. Maybe a shorted HT
lead, or a non-resistive rotor arm could cause this?

Good luck...
 

jfernandez@jazzchicos.com wrote:
> 
> Hello everybody!
> 
> My Alfa 75 Twin Spark Limited Edition 1992 is creating some troubles
> to me now. Few minutes after starting the engine it starts to fail
> and
> finally stops.
> 
> What I have found is that after disconnecting the cental wire in
> distributor located upper and in the front side of the engine, the
> engine inmediately stops.
> 
> If I kill (disconnect) the other one instead, the engine runs OK.
> 
> I have got another ALFA 75 Twin Spark and tried the same operation on
> it, but the engine runs OK with any of the distributors only
> connected. Then I supposed that the fail must be in the other
> distributor as it seems not to be working and when I kill the other
> this doesn't make the engine run.
> 
> With both distributors working, the engine runs but not smoothly and
> it comes worse with the time (as it warms up).
> 
> Things I did:
> 
> 1. Check all the wires: from coils to distributors and from
> distributors to sparks (so fluid arrives to the distributors)
> 2. Exchange coils. The fail still affected to the same distributor.
> 3. Replace sparks (so I'm sure that noone is failing now)
> 4. Replace the distributor in the bottom right side of the engine
> (the
> presumed defective one).
> 5. Check the timings and adjust them following the procedure
> described
> in the workshop manual (set up crankshaft up to the the checking
> point
> in block and then set up distributors 12 degrees further away the
> checking mark).
> 
> Please, any of you have got any idea that could help me?
> 
> I presumed that it is an electrical or a timing problem, as with only
> one distributor the engine runs and, besides, as I wrote above, in my
> other ALFA 75, the engine runs OK woth only one distributor enabled
> (no matter which one)
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance.
> 
> Julio Fernández
> 
Subject: 
          [alfa75] Re: Problem with distributor
     Date: 
          Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:33:22 -0000
    From: 
          "Sander " <sander.qv@zonnet.nl>
Hi,

But on the twinspark the power-modules are close to the coil and not 
inside the motronic as with the 1.8IE. So it is possible to exchange 
these power-modules.

What if you only exchange the 4-pole connectors (to the 
coil/powermodule), does the problem change from one distributor to
the 
other? If yes, problem in motronic or wiring from motronic to 
power-modules. If not, problem in power-module, coil or distributor.
You could also connect just one of these connectors at a time and try 
different combinations.
 

Hope this helps, Sander.
 

--- In alfa75@egroups.com, "Arjan Cats" <t.a.j.cats@z...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Yes, the Motronic can be overloaded!
> Your answer did remember me that I tried once zero-Ohms ignition 
cords on my
> 1.8IE.
> The engine runned, but stopped after a while!
> So I agree with you that the overload can be a possibility.
> 
> Arjan

If it returns to idle ie. if you push in the clutch pedal and it and
take
your foot off the gas, and it idles normally but won't speed up and the
engine dies with an open throttle, then try replacing the the ignition
advance control unit in the right kick panel

chris hall

Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:17:48 -0400
From: christian147@juno.com
Subject: Re:cutting out

My post on Friday mentioned the ignition control unit as a possible
cause.  As luck would have it my newest Milano stopped running
yesterday. It soul start for about 3 seconds after sitting for a while.  It would
run only at full throttle.  With the key on the injectors were ticking
by themselves.  Unplug the dist. made no difference they were still opening
and closing.  Unplug the injection control and it stopped, but I
expected that.  Unplug ignition unit and it stopped, plugged back in and it
didn't start until engine was cranked and then the injectors would just click
away as long as the key was on.  Opened the unit and found about 2cc of
water in the case and capillary action holding water between the large
DIP IC and the circuit board.  I dried it out and all was well again. 
Now let me suggest a simple fix.  The case of the unit forms a cup open
where the electrical connections come out.  It is mounted at an angle
but with the open end up and the big IC at the lowest point.  I drilled 3
3mm holes in the lowest corner of the case to let any water run out.  This
car may be an extreme case because the PO has a windshield installed
very poorly and it leaks every where and with all the other things it needs a
reseal hasn't  a priority until now.

chris hall

Mike,

Based on the experience I have had lately with my ALFA75TS, I
would say it is definitely the rotors.  I also fell for the same
promlem " there is spark going to the dizzy" therefore it is OK.
It is not!  The rotors on both mine have failed in the last 12
months.  (One at a time!) The rotors are not available from Bosch, but
Facit make an aftermarket one that seems to be fine in mine.

To change it, you have to remove the dizzy, easy, and then drive
out the pin in the base (note the alignment first).  The whole
shaft with rotor comes out. I gave it a clean and put it back
together with the new rotor.  Worked first go.

The "hard to start" is most likely to be the one on the front of the
motor, as I found that the once started it would run on the
other.  When the lower dizzy failed, the whole rotor was off!  This 
rotor did not really effect the running at all. 

Are you aware of holding the key on and cranking for about 10
seconds will cause the computer to go into "limp" mode and
usually will start the engine?

Let me know if you need more details.

Cheers,
david
1989 ALFA75 Twin Spark.  150000Kms
- ---
Mike wrote:

I am having a starting problem with my 1990 164 Twin Spark. The
problem initially was a misfire which lasted for about a week. During
that time, the fuel injectors were cleaned but the misfire continued, gradually
got worse until the engine failed to start all together. I replaced the
fuel pump and filter as I found that the rubber mounting for the intank pump
had badly deteriorated causing the filter to be severely blocked with
rubber particles. Fuel pressure is now reading 42 psi but the engine does not
start. I have checked the distributors and current is going to both of them,
however, I am not getting any current leaving the distributors. Could the rotor
brushes be defective? What's the likelihood that both brushes would have
died at the same time? I am having difficulty getting the rotor brushes off - is
there a special procedure involved? Could there be some other fuel
related problem why the car will not start? Your comments and experiences will be
greatly appreciated.

Mike Dunn
Kingston, Jamaica

Marc,

>> bottom of the alternator.  This appears to be the 
>> pivot point for the alternator.  The problem I'm
>> having is that I can't get the bolt all the 
>> way out because it hits the front crossmember. 
>> It looks like I might be able to remove the entire
>> bracket as it bolts to the side of the engine, 
>> but I'm having trouble getting a wrench on one 
>> of the bolts.  The only other way I can see is to 
>> raise the engine. 

I have done this before, and raising the engine is
exactly what you need to do.

But it's not that hard, and you only need to raise it
just a little. Use a block of wood under the pan, and
your jack, and jack up the engine just enough to give
you the clearance that you need.
 

g.                      79 Alfetta Sedan
Gary Stark              72 2000 GTV

In a message dated 12/26/00 10:35:34 AM Central Standard Time, 
kit.redwine@centurasoft.com writes:

<< Can someone tell me if the plug wires from a 3.0 Verde will function
 properly on a 2.5 GTV6?  >>

Yes, they will work the only difference is that the Verde coil wire is longer 
because of the ABS placement. You might check the wires from the ignition 
control module to the distributor where they pass the passenger side exhaust 
manifold. They can slip down onto the manifold and burn through the outer 
insulation and cause a stumbling, this happen on my son's GTV6.

John Katos
West Dundee, IL

The big metal box on the foot well floor is for the FI, it is an analog
system hence no EPROM to store curves.  the box on the kick panel is
ignition and it calls into question wether the car is really a Verde. 
The most noticeable (visually) difference in the Verde is that the ign.
ECU was much larger then 2.5's and was in a metal case with a connector
of the same type as the FI.  The 2.5's was a much smaller plastic box
with a pair of gang connectors with .187" fastons.

chris hall

Your right, as far as I know it's the carbon brushes. If you don't
replace
them, you will find it out soon, sometimes within 1000 km.

Alfa

nelaco@yahoo.com wrote:

> Hello all,
>       About 2 weeks ago, the battery light on the ARC flashes at
> different times.  It isn't consistent, so I can't locate the
> problem.  The battery seems fully charged though.  I haven't noticed
> any kind of loss of juice. The light most of the times comes on
> anytime there is any kind of electrical load...including applying the
> brakes.  The belt seems tight enough, and the battery connectors are
> clean.  Could it be the carbon brushes in the alternator that are too
> short from wear?  Thank you for any suggestions in advance.
>
> Nelson
> '87 Milano Gold 2.5

Digesti,
  Friday my '89 Milano Gold started as usual but about 3 minutes later,
when I came to a stop light,  it just died.  It would not restart.  Since I
have a spare fuel pump relay, the first thing I did was to swap it into the
car.  Still no start.  I then turned on the ignition and opened the valve in
the air flow meter, I immediately could hear fuel in the lines and could
feel the fuel surging in the fuel rail.  So at this point,  I ruled out fuel
problems. 
 I pulled the wire off spark plug # 1 and inserted a spare plug and laid
it onto the cam cover.  My wife cranked the car, but absolutely no spark. 
I checked a few voltages around the ignition circuit, but all the voltages 
showed what the manual said they should.  I cleaned all the connectors
that I came in contact with.  Still no start.
    At this point I called Fred.  There are 3 components in the ignition 
circuit.  The power module, the Hall effect pulse generator in the 
distributor, and the ignition advance ECU located down near the passenger's 
footwell.  Fred said that the most likely of these 3 to go was the power 
module.  So, off to Ralph Moorhouse's to borrow the power module out of his 
Verde.  I put it in and it started right up !  Unbelievable, I actually
made a non running Bosch FI car run !  What luck !  and thanks Fred !
The module is the one under the coil with the big connector.
Joel Lewis
Houston
'74 GTV
'82 spider
'89 milano

Wed, 21 Nov 2001 10:38:35 EST
Carson,
  On the way to play tennis, the Milano just died.  I pulled off a plug wire, put in an extra plug and cranked it... there was NO spark.   I was getting the 12 V at the + side of the coil, but still no spark.   I called Fred DiMAtteo, he said that there are 3 components in the ignition system.  The module  (the one directly under the coil),  the pulse unit ( in the distributor) and the igniton box ( located under the side carpet in the passenger footwell, near the ECU).  Fred said the most likely culprit (to fail) of the 3 was the module under the distributor.   At first he thought it was the ignition switch, but when i assured him that I had 12V+ at the coil, he changed his mind.  Luckily, Ralph was willing to lend me his module and it immediately made my car work !  So, that was it... i still feel very lucky to have "solved" the problem !
Hope this helps... Happy T-Day.
Joel Lewis (friend in Alfa of Ralph Moorhouse)
Houston, Tx
'89 Gold

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 20:18:57 EST
From: Iopsycheng@aol.com
Subject: [alfa] Re: alfa-digest V10 #400

Hey Gang,
As I promised I have part numbers and prices. A thousand pardons, the parts
are not Delco, they are Borg-Warner... Anyway as of today at my local Pep Boys
 they are on the shelf:
Spider 1987 2 Liter
                Cap  P/N-C546 $8.99
                Cap  P/N-C546P $11.99
                Rotor  P/N-D599 $5.99

GTV-6 and Milano 2.5 and 3.0 Liter
                Cap  P/N-C196 $10.99
                Rotor  P/N-D163 $5.99

1991 thru 1993 164 and 164L
                Cap  P/N-C697 $84.99
                Rotor  P/N-D652 $19.99
I understand the 164 prices are a bit higher than some Alfa retailers but
once you ad in shipping and the wait for the part it really becomes a push. To
non Bosch Spider owners and later Monotronic owners I am willing to go back
and  look up specific cars, I have access to their computer, these just happen
to be  Alfas my wife and I own.
Thomas Gonnella

Also see the part crossover page, Ed.

Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 14:38:38 +0000
From: "Allen Mitchell" <allenom@hotmail.com>
Subject: [alfa] MSD install in GTV6

I have installed an MSD 6AL in a GTV6, and here is what I know:

In order for the L-Jet ECU to receive the proper trigger signal, you need to 
use an MSD tach adapter. The tach adapter is wired into the ignition system 
IN PLACE of the original Bosch Coil.  The MSD box is then triggered off the 
"magnetic pickup" plug, NOT the white wire. The "tach adapter" has the 
mating plug coming out of it.  There are no polarity considerations.  The 
tach adapter has two wires and a plug.  Connect the wires that were hooked 
to one terminal of the coil to one of the tach adapter wires, and vice 
versa.  The MSD box connects to the MSD coil.  DO NOT hook any part of the 
GTV6's wiring to the MSD coil. You can clamp it into the place where the 
Bosch coil went, if you like.  You DO RETAIN the "control module."
The OE tach will still work if you do this.  If you use an aftermarket tach, 
I would recommend using the MSD box tach output (if so equipped).

Hope that helps,
Al